The Way It Is & The Way It Should Be

Rhett Dotson Today on pipeline things. It's the episode with Straight Fire. I literally have to say we have no, it is a rousing episode where we get into the difference between the way it is now and the way it should be, and we're talking about how or what is the relationship between regulations, standards and research. And we talked to a very passionate, if not rousing, guest on this continued episode of the Sage series. Hope you enjoy it today. All right, welcome to today's edition of Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson, my co-host Christopher de Leon, and we are continuing in this sage series of where we bring on. If you listen to our last one, I can use the word now because he actually gave us the permission. Christopher de Leon The Geezer series compliments of Dr. Dave Rhett Dotson Compliments of Dr. Dave. So, if any of our guests get upset, Christopher, they only have. Christopher De Leon You can submit all of your feedback complaints to Dr. Dave, and I'm sure he would oblige. Rhett Dotson We are absolved by all blame for the use of the word geezers for sure. But I am enjoying this series. I mean, really, Dave kind of stoked a fire in me when we talked to him last time, and I think today's episode might just throw gasoline on that fire on me because I know that we're going to get another passionate individual. That individual is also very well known in our industry. Chris, I know he is a personal mentor to you, so I'm going to let you do the introduction. Christopher de Leon It's his fault that I'm even here to be honest with you. Rhett Dotson Oh God, I want everybody if you listen to our podcast. Christopher De Leon If you have another complaint about just about this guy in general, you should send him to the guy that's on the podcast I mean this is all his fault. Rhett Dotson Yes, you can blame our guest today for Christopher de Leon. There are lots of people now who are getting ready. Christopher de Leon Well, maybe not for me like maybe not for me personally. Like this person, but rather the fact that I'm here. Rhett Dotson We will have to ask him if he takes all responsibility for your actions. But the reason that I get so excited about this guest is this guest has authored a book. We're going to go through that in a bit. But he has a figure in that book and it specifically talks about the relationship between incidence regulation standards and research, which was a topic in doctor Daves. Christopher de Leon We did, and potential flow for those. Right? Rhett Dotson And his figure is perfect because it talks about the way it is now and the way it should be. And I want to give the audience again, stop and think in your mind for a moment the way it is now. The process is we have an incident which then results in regulations, which standards then respond to. And on the tail end, we perform research. Christopher de Leon To do it better and you're on to something, right? So, think about it, right? If you are currently in an integrity management team as an operator or even a service provider, how many times do y’all begin discussions for meaning change management because of regulation? So is it compliance mindset or is its best practice mindset, safety mindset, process control mindset. Rhett Dotson So that's the way it is. He also our guest presents the way it should be, which is research is the genesis, which then drives standards, which in turn then drive regulations which prevent incidents rather than being a primary cause. So that's, you know, again, if you're listening, that's going to be the shape of the podcast today. It's going to be an exciting guest. Christopher, would you like to introduce him on the show? Christopher de Leon Sure, Jerry come on down. It's like the Price Is Right. Rhett Dotson Jerry, thank you so much for joining us today. Jerry Rau Glad to be here. Rhett Dotson Yeah, thanks. The audience is going to be super glad that you joined us today too. So, we have to stand up the books. So, if y'all are not familiar as the audience member, Jerry coauthored a book with several of his closest allies. I almost called it like a posse, like a posse within the industry. And it is a really good book called “By God, if I were in charge” like the title just comes right out and grabs you and is it true all proceeds of this book go to. Jerry Rau To WPP. Rhett Dotson To WPP. So, Jerry Jerry Rau None of the authors get any royalties, all the money. And thanks to Clarion for allowing us to distribute the book without charge. Rhett Dotson So, what I have heard is that there are only limited copies left. So, if you still want a copy, there are only a limited amount left in print, otherwise it is accessible as on Kindle. Christopher de Leon So, I do have a hard copy of it. And one of the things I've tried to do is get everybody who has a chapter in the book to sign the book for me, because fortunately I do know everyone who authored the book. Rhett Dotson How close are you? Christopher de Leon I'm about halfway. I could have gotten one today, but I didn't bring the book. Rhett Dotson That's a failure. Yeah. So, Jerry, you don't mind? Would you please introduce yourself to the audience? Where do where do you hail from? How did you find yourself here? Jerry Rau Number one, I do accept full responsibility for this guy. So again, it is. Christopher de Leon You're welcome. And I'm sorry. Jerry Rau I take full responsibility for bringing. Rhett Dotson We will give out Jerry's email address later. Jerry Rau [email protected] if you have any complaints about this guy. So how did I get to be where I am? Well, it's interesting. When I graduated from university in 1974, a few years ago, it was a middle of a recession and I ended up working, getting a job at a gas utility company. At that point in my career, I didn't even know pipe was round. And so, as I started my job there, they had an internship, if you will, what they call it. They call it an internship, and they sent you around the company to learn different aspects of the industry. And at the end of that, that orientation, then they would say, here's the jobs that are available for you. Well, at that time, the Wisconsin Gas Company was in the forefront of applying polyethylene pipe to gas distribution. It was a relatively new thing back then. In those days was right after we stopped using wood. No, I'm kidding. But anyway, so at the end of our internship, I said, well, I'd like to get in the research department. They said, well, you're going to be a corrosion engineer. So, it's kind of like the military. So, if you ask for something you most assuredly won't get that. So that's how I got into the pipeline business and how I got into the corrosion business. And even to this day, I still consider myself a corrosion engineer, although my trade and my craft and everything else taken me in many different aspects of the pipeline industry, I've been very blessed. If you will, in the career I've chosen. I've really enjoyed what I've done for all these many years and I've never regretted any of it. I've met and worked with some of the most wonderful, spectacular people I can imagine, and I'm very proud of the things that the companies that I worked for managed to accomplish. Yeah, I mean, you just claim responsibility and I did your here. Here's some I am prouder of than others. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. Christopher de Leon But all I can say is there has been some good out of me, I've hired a lot of people for this industry as well. Rhett Dotson Well, you just took credit for this guy so? Jerry Rau Some I am prouder of then others, that is true. Christopher de Leon Look all I am going to say is you has some good impact because I have hired a lot of people for this industry, right? There's a lot of you out there that can attest to that. What I would say, Jerry, is it's I feel like we kind of still have that same vein. Right. See, say like you want it to be do one thing. And the company said, well, you're going to be a corrosion engineer, right? I mean, I'm of a similar regard as well, right? Like came into to when you know time Southern Union working in engine reliability and then I ended up in pipeline integrity. I mean I feel like that happens a lot. Right. And I feel like it's kind of still that. But we've been incredibly blessed to be in Pipeline. And I remember in our recruiting tactics, you heard me say this a bunch it at our former employer right where we would say, hey, you know, if you don't know much about pipelines, we think you're going to love this because we loved it. Jerry Rau So, it’s interesting one of the things that I still like to do is I'll talk to people and I'll say, how did you get in the pipeline business? Right? I mean, there is no pipeline engineering course that you can take. I think there is actually one now. I just saw that somewhere down there, but they're very rare. So, it's always interesting. So, I would suggest to the audience that if you want to have a good, interesting conversation with people that you meet at a conference or something, ask them, how did you get into this business? Right. I'll guarantee you you'll have some really interesting. Christopher de Leon And do you regret it? Rhett Dotson No, I freaking love it. Some of the best people you meet are in pipelines. It's actually I think it's like I used to work with Ray Ayres when I was at Strauss Ray Ayres is one of those people that had 30 years at Shell before he retired and came back as a consultant for 20 plus years. And I remember Ray told me, like when he first introduced the pipelines, he said, Are you serious? How do we get a career out of this? It's long, it's skinny and it's got a hole in the middle of it. How difficult can it be? And like most of us are that way, right? Like 20 years later, you're like, these problems are so difficult. How do we figure this challenge out? It's it is deceptively easy looking but really challenging problems that we face. And so, it's a rewarding career. Well, Jerry, I want to dive right into it with you. So, you kind of heard me in the introduction really segway to I think what we're going to talk about today, which is the way it is versus the way it should be, and really that whole notion that we live in response to failures. Right. And well, I think we understand why it is that way. Even if we don't necessarily like it, we understand why it's that way. Christopher de Leon And I do want to add a little bit. We're giving you a little bit of a poetic license here, right. So, part of the Sage series is for us and for our audience to have an opportunity to hear Jerry Rau Go ahead and say it, Geezers, go ahead and say it Christopher de Leon We want to hear what the geezers really think, you know? Jerry Rau And I'm a proud geezer. Rhett Dotson A vocal one at that. Christopher De Leon You guys were players then coaches, and now you're on, you know, you're in the audience looking in and screaming at the coaches and screaming at the players, telling us, you know, it's open over there. Do it here. Jerry Rau Sometimes you know, I'm screaming at the referee, but that’s another thing we'll get into that later. Christopher de Leon We want to hear that. So, you have that license today? Rhett Dotson Absolutely. So, without further ado, jump right in. You know, in that model you mentioned research should be on the front end that in the way it should be research be on the front end. But the way it is as you present it, it's on the back end. And one of the reasons you point to and I think, you know, again, our audience may find may find agreement with this or maybe they maybe they feel like it resonates with them. Maybe they should consider it. I want to hear let's start as a starting point from you, a volunteer model. This is Jerry's quotes. A volunteer model with no accountability is not working. Roadmaps are not clear, indistinct, and not routinely shared. There is still no clear path on technology transfer. That's what you wrote in the book in regards to the research organizations. Jerry Rau I have to take accountability for that. Rhett Dotson Yeah, yeah. You got to own that one now. Jerry Rau It's on, it's on me. Christopher de Leon By God, if I were the boss. Rhett Dotson So, again, since we're supposed to start with research and you identify this as an issue. What advice? How do we how do we get around this? Jerry Rau Well, let's talk about the history a little bit of why it got to be the way it is. And you think about how regulations were first promulgated was because of incidents back in the sixties, in the fifties and the forties and before that. Right. So, the federal regulations came about as a result of a of a failure of an incident, and government decided it needed to take charge to provide accountability to our industry, I would guess. And even though I am a geezer, I'm not that old, that if I'd have been around at that time, we would have seen the same things, right? They, the operators said the governments, and we'd have to write some standards which they did, which was ASME B 31. Right. So, they did develop some standards that they hoped would be incorporated into the regulations. And they even began to do some of the research at that time. So PRCI, in fact, started about that time in the fifties. So there then became a research organization. As time evolved, the research organization was relatively small and still is relatively small. My argument, and I think even say it in the book, is when you think about the amount of revenue that's generated by the pipeline company and pipeline, the pipeline industry is in the terms of billions of dollars, right? The PRCI model gets about 10 million and I may be off now. Rhett Dotson I think you quote nine in the 9 to 10 Jerry Rau It maybe a little bit more than that. Think about that as a percentage of revenue. Think about just about any other industry that you can think of. How much money as a percentage of revenue that they apply for research. And it's not 0.0001%. Right? So, number one, we don't apply enough money and or enough resources in human resources. Yeah. So, I'm begging the question a little bit, but the point is, if we spent more money in human capital and in in in dollar capital into the research side of our business, it would help turn that turn that model around substantially. And again, we talk about the accountability issue is when you have a volunteer organization, the accountability is way different then than I'm trying to mince my words a little bit then if the model was a little different. Right. So, is there an accountability when you get back to the office? And again, I look at the audience, if you are part of a research organization, what is your accountability? When I get back to the office, what should I be advocating for when I get back to my office? As I told this guy when he was involved in that, I said, you are going to be accountable. Christopher de Leon I had a really great dinner, it's a really fun people. Jerry Rau We had a really great time with cocktails. You wish we stayed out late. Christopher de Leon And the geezers are great at telling stories. Jerry Rau But the point is, you need to be accountable for that. And it'll be part of your performance review. Yeah, right. So, when you get back from this organization, say, how am I going to apply what I learned? And it's about just not just my organization but the other organizations. And you think about the upside-down pyramid, the pyramid the right way, the way I would think of it when I get back then as part of a research organization, how do I get my advocacy carry over to the standard writing organizations? Rhett Dotson Right. Yeah, I was going to say I really like how you put it in terms of money and resources because I actually think money would be easy. But if you did nothing but throw money at an organization like PRCI, don't, you might in fact even make the problem worse by creating more research that can't be disseminated, that can't be understood, that can't be properly vetted. I really do think I resonate with it is incumbent upon the operators and to create a culture and enable their employees to be able to devote the time. That's the resource component that needs to come from the operators, not just the consultants filling the room, but really operators driving and holding their employee’s accountability for producing things. Christopher de Leon And there's really 2 components to this, I think. Right. I mean, and again, you and I, at least we work to remind our audience of why we're doing this. Right. It's information sharing, right? So, whether it's a relevant event, like a certain IPC paper or a publication or an incident, I'm going to tie that to this. It's almost to two pronged. One is that organizational leadership like of what you're saying, Jerry, of saying, hey, we are invested in either this consensus standard development or in this research topic, whether it's through INGA or PRCI or a FEMSA project, whatever it may be in research, it's that how are we bringing that back in and how are we contributing talent? Not just money. But I think there's another component of it, which is us, right? It's the you and me’s of the world. It's our audience, the operators who are saying, what are you doing as a decision maker for integrity related or the budgeting or the time allocation of your team to say, how are we going out, learning from others, contributing to industry, and then bringing that back and integrating that in our decision-making process. Jerry Rau That's the kind of that's the accountability piece, right? So, we talked about the resource allocation, but it's the accountability. Am I accountable? As we talked a little bit before we started this this podcast is the way it always has been, is when the guy goes to an organization, whether it's PRCI or Enga or AGA or NASA or whatever it is, I know I shouldn't say NAC anymore. It's I think amp sorry, can't get there. Christopher de Leon You know what my wife told me, keep your thought. Chris is NAC The National Association of Catering. I was like, What? Because Amanda is a bachelor of hotel management, and she's like, NAC is the catering organization. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. It's corrosion. Jerry Rau It's a different organization. But the point is that you would you would do the work outside of your everyday job in the dark underneath your desk, right? Yeah, because your boss and I may be guilty a little bit, but I hope not to say, well, you do that on your own instead of saying, no, this is part of your performance review, this is part of your job. That's how you get the ball rolling. You get the accountability piece. Yes, you're exactly right. Rhett. It's not just about the money. It's about that accountability. And that goes to the top of the organization. Rhett Dotson Yeah. And that's where I really want to challenge you, because I think your words are not even necessarily for people, young people our age. I mean, I think there are a lot of people that are our age that are probably getting into positions of management and maybe they can use some of their influence to push. But you mentioned them working after hours in the dark under their desk. Many of them are working after hours in the dark, under their desk on the task that they've been assigned, much less something like research. I'm imagining audience members are like, well, Jerry, am I supposed to spend the extra between 60 and 70 hours? I work a week on PRCI related things, and having done projects for something like PRCI, I often find myself as a struggle with, you know, dealing with project champions that don't have the time to focus on the project, right? And that can really create challenges. So what advice, I mean, Jerry, what would you push for? Would you push for I mean; you led you led a group of integrity engineers. Would you have a dedicated integrity engineer whose sole focus was PRCI? Would you make it 20%? Christopher de Leon We're using PRCI as an example, right? Rhett Dotson Because it's one that everyone a resonate everyone. Christopher de Leon But I mean, there's different mechanisms, right? In my AGA writes white papers Rhett Dotson Let's any of these either research or standards organizations that need operator input. What would what look better than what we have now? Jerry Rau It gets back to accountability and that goes all the way up the ladder, right? 00;19;21;24 - 00;19;49;11 Unknown So as a director of pipeline integrity, it is was and it was not is any more. There is a responsibility to say it is your job to do these things because you're moving the ball forward as far as safety consistency, which compliance will follow. So, if you're not doing those things, part of your job is yes, to make sure that we're a safe organization, how do we make sure that we're a safe organization? Well, I want to make sure that there's appropriate research being developed and the appropriate standards that my engineers can then fall back on and right the appropriate procedures and policies for my company to make sure that I'm as safe as I possibly can be. And as I advocate, it's a safety first, consistency. Second, I want to make sure that everything that's done in our organization is consistent across the board because that helps making it safe and reliable. And then finally, worry about compliance. If you do the first two, the first two things, you have to be in compliance. If you're not in compliance, then there's something wrong with the regulations, right? If you're doing those two things correctly. And I have to reiterate that if you're doing the first things correctly, then compliance should fall in line. Rhett Dotson So, say it another way. If you aim for compliance first, you may be safe or you may be consistent, but if you strive for safety and consistency, you should always be a compliant. Jerry Rau There you go. Absolutely. Christopher de Leon Yeah. Well, that's not always as easy as you would expect. Jerry Rau No, it isn't. Christopher de Leon Because I remember once I was at a at a G PAC meeting when they were reviewing some of the proposed regulation, you know, and I heard that, you know, the if I'm not mistaken, if somebody can correct me, but it was something along the lines of, you know, the pipeline Safety Act was based on a on a cost benefit analysis to some degree. Right. And so, we already recognize that part of integrity management is risk management. And there's only finite resources. Right. And so, there's always that crux of saying when I have to have a choice of compliance versus maybe what's best practice, there's always going to be some kind of consequence of not being compliant and right. And I would say that's maybe a cultural thing, though, as well, right? I mean, Rhett and I have had the blessing of serving a lot of clients over the last decade, and we do see some of those cultural differences. Right? We'll see whether it's organizational leadership or just the talent management, right? Because it's all resources, whether it's money time or talent. Right. Like I was talking to one operator, I mean, literally a couple of weeks ago, and he was like, Chris, we're struggling. And I'm like, what's up? Like, I'm a consultant. Like, let me help. He's like, no, you can't help this one. And I was like, what’s going on? He goes, we can't keep staff for longer than 18 months. I was like, Well, that's your problem, because no, it's not a me problem. He goes, they’re on rotational programs because they're learning about how to do inside the fence. Outside the fence, they're learning field operations. Jerry Rau You’re trying to get you to trouble, aren't you? Christopher de Leon No, I'm not. Jerry Rau Yes, you're not. Because, you know, I'm going to go off on this. Christopher de Leon And so, my point is, he goes he goes, and you have to appreciate these kids or this young talent trying to get exposure and then making a decision. But I can't build competency. I can't build momentum when that's what I'm dealing with. Whereas I have another organization that we that we've tried that we're working with, where they have different philosophy’s, right where they are building SMEs. I focus on ILI Right. I focus on project management, I focus on corrosion, I focus on field operations and they work as a unit, right? And so not that one's right or one's wrong. But I do think that this whole idea of if we look at pipeline safety, consistency and compliance, I do think that there is an important maybe Joker or Wild card in there that says right now I feel like the culture that we're in, in pipeline integrity is kind of in flux, right? So, it's kind of hard to say this is the way to do it. Jerry Rau Well, I want to twist it just as just a smidge. Yeah, you're right in that as things have progressed and I use that word cautiously. Christopher de Leon This is all still progress going forward. That's progress. Jerry Rau That's right. You know, back when I started, it was a good thing to be an expert in a field. You know, when you think about when I first started and the technical services organization, which I've been a part of almost my entire career, is there was an expert in this in regulation. There was an expert in measurement, there was an expert in pipeline, there was an expert in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and they were proud of doing that. And there was a path of improvement for those people, for those expertise’s, for those disciplines. I don't see that as much anymore. And you guys can argue that it's okay. You can say that I'm wrong. I don't know because I've been out of the business a little in that progression of saying what I want is a well-rounded engineer. That may be to a certain extent, okay for the organization, but it's lousy for the discipline, right? So, it's okay for the organization to say, now you're going to do a little bit about measurement, then you're going to a little bit about it, about regulation, and you're going to a little bit about this and a little bit about pipeline that doesn't help the organization, I think, at all, because I need the experts that have been there, done that, seen that and can advocate it and have accountability. Keep going back to the word accountability for it. Well, I I'd like to answer your question, boss, but I was doing, you know, doing a job for the measurement group today. Yeah. And I see that that was that was a big change that happened during my career. Rhett Dotson I've got so many thoughts because one of the things that you're harping on, you're absolutely right. I think you're right. Although I. I did not have the experience of working within a pipeline operator. I do have several of my clients and even close friends who do. There is a tendency to pigeonhole the SME’s now into certain places where there is no either path up or really, it's just like, that's the corrosion guy. I will go and find them when I need them. Right? So, I do think we have, I'm going to say maybe organizational issues and organizational cultural issues we should talk about. But I want to do that after the break because I want to read another one of your famous quotes that you'll have to own up to from the book. But again, accountability. That's what we're going to talk about. But we're going to do that when we get back from the break. We'll be right back. All right. Welcome back to Pipeline. Things where we are considering our continuing our conversation with Jerry Rau. And we've been it's been a fun and rousing conversation so far. And I imagine the end of this episode will be no less fun and rousing. But I want to wrap up our conversation Jerry Rau No pun intended. Rousing. Christopher de Leon Yeah, I know. I thought about that, too. Wow. It was a job that it really was really good. Rhett Dotson I had no idea. You've heard. I'm sorry. I got a terrible. Do we need to reshoot reposts? I was actually saying, no, we don't need to reshoot. Okay, I want to wrap up the conversation on the volunteer model with standards and objectives. And I just want to ask you, just because I do think it's important as a sage, I want to ask you to give advice to two groups of people that our listeners fall into the camps. The first is, you know, our YPP group are young people, new people to the industry. You know, Jerry, where would you tell them to go and what advice would you give them for, for trying to get involved in these volunteer organizations? That's question number one. And question number two is for those people who are in leadership, those influencers, those people who are or, you know, in their forties that are leading a group, what advice and what recommendations would you give them for getting their people involved and holding them accountable? Jerry Rau So, the first one, as far as the young engineers, as you said, WPP, which is not inclusive, I don't mean that it's an exclusive organization, but the assumption is not all the young people in our industry are part of WPP. So, the first thing is get involved in WPP because that's that'll open the door to how to get into some of those organizations, especially if your particular company you work for is not promoting that. So again, by starting with WPP, they can say, here are the organizations that we're involved in, Here's the people that support us. And there's just a natural door opener. If if you are already part of WPP or if you're not. Rhett Dotson What if you aged out? Jerry Rau Well, that's a good question. That's a good question. I have aged out, by the way, but there are a bunch of organizations and I think what you can do is talk to these two guys and say, what are the what are the classic ones? Obviously, PRCI we've talked a lot about and we we've talked about API is a really good one. And I guarantee you if you reach out to any of those organizations, you get on their website and say, how can I volunteer? You will get lots of response Christopher de Leon Or go find your local geezer Jerry Rau Or find your local geyser, right? And then on the other side, the question is what should management do to promote that again, is relatively straightforward. You be accountable, make sure that you give the opportunities. And I always say this and I and my wife Jane, says, you got to be careful how you say this. I say what I want my engineers to be is presentable. And I don't mean that because they're well-dressed or good looking or anything like that. I mean that they have the skill sets that they can become in front of people and voice their opinions appropriately. Right? So, for substance, and that's part of a that's part of a supervisor's job to make that person presentable, because once they're presentable, then they can go give them the opportunities. And, you know, they're going to they're going to represent your organization appropriately. And then lastly is to make sure that you support those efforts by your employees. And I've said it a few times already, make it part of their performance review. Chris, when you go to these organizations, I'm going to ask you at the end of the year, did you go what did you learn? What did you bring? Back to my organization? Make me make me accountable and make them accountable, because then I can go to my senior management and say, this is why it's so valuable for Chris or someone else to be involved in this. Because guess what? We got a standard that was written. We got this research done that we're now doing a job, a different job or the same job better than we used to. So that's the short answer. Christopher de Leon All right. All right. I would I would also say, guys, if you are in one of those positions, there's there is a lot of opportunity out there. I mean, between Rhett and I we participated enough industry initiatives, whether it's standards developments or working, presenting papers, those are also good entry points. Right. I would say the first thing is that sometimes these conversations can be a little bit awkward because you don't know what you don't know. I would just say encourage you to start having those conversations, right? Ask your peers, ask your supervisor, and just start somewhere. And then one thing will lead to the next. Jerry Rau And I'll give a shout out to my old company, Panhandle, which I always think is my old company, is I had those have had those opportunities and I was always supported in that regard. And I and I've taken that passionately as I've moved forward through my career. Christopher de Leon Yeah, Okay. And you know, Jerry, one of the things I feel like on this theme of accountability, right, is it's I wanted to ask you so, true or false, you stood up to 90 P from scratch. Jerry Rau I did. True, Your Honor. Christopher de Leon It’s been pretty close to 20 years since you put that IMP in place. True or false? Jerry Rau Way more than that. I started with Panhandle in 1991 as a corrosion engineer. Within six months, I ran the first smart pig on the Panhandle Eastern system as a corrosion engineer and the only one in the integrity Department, which we didn't even call it that I ran all the smart pigs. So quite literally, me and my bosses who supported me in that effort started an integrity management program in 1991, and then by 1998. So, 98, Eric, was that 98 maybe a little older. Christopher de Leon You still hear him whispering to you? Jerry Rau Of course, I do maybe a little earlier than that is one that the official the group was formulated and we actually hired a corrosion engineer. We hired under a pipeline engineer, and of course, Marvin Hove’s, the Koch engineer. Marvin God blesses you, Marvin. Yeah. So, it was a relatively small group, but then it expanded from there. And just to finish, the most important thing that we did is we realized that it couldn't just be the engineering group to run this. So, we, we knew how important data was. So, data management was a critical part of the group. So, GIS, which was even then, was just kind of in the forefront. We made sure that GIS was part of the group as well. That's something to make sure that you think about when you look at the organization that you have for your Pipeline integrity department. Yeah. Do you have the GIS group closely aligned? Sorry. Christopher de Leon I think the question is, you know, you've had an opportunity to see how a lot of your decisions panned out, not hiring me. We're talking about the integrity program. Looking back, what are what are some lessons learned? Right. Because I feel like a lot of times there's a snowball effect. Right. We heard Dr. Dave talk about this with, you know, how b 318s kind of formed and how it's come into play in a same vein. Right. You know, you spun up an integrity program. Now 20 plus years later, you kind of see how some of those decisions can have residual impacts. You know what? What are some of the lessons learned that you'd like to share with the audience? Rhett Dotson What ways do you see us maybe moving where you say, I don't know if that's a good path necessarily that we're taking with integrity management today, so wide open? Jerry Rau It is wide open. And I think what I'll do is I'll continue to reiterate some of the things we've already talked about is the Pipeline Integrity Department needs to be involved in the process as well as the as well as the data. You know, I think you can use one of my quotes in the book is we've always been really good about data management, but not process management. So, I think the biggest failure that I still see in or in organizations is having truly a process management philosophy and a process management process, if you will. Right? So, we're good at managing day to day stuff. Did you run the pic? Yes, I did. You did you get all the data? Yeah, I got all of it. Did you do the digs on time? Yeah, I got all the data done on time. But what you learn. Right. What did that all that information tell you? Or conversely, what should I now know that I didn't know before? Again, one of my quotes is learn what you don't know. What you don't know. Right. What did this process? So again, I wrote down that I ran the pig, but did I talk to everybody that was involved in the process? How did this work? How did this work? How did this work? And how can I make the overall process management better? Christopher de Leon What I feel like FEMSA often says to kind of blanket that is, its data integration, right? I feel a lot of times that's kind of like the lingo I hear. A lot of times when we work with the customer and they're like, hey, you know, FEMSA is asking us about data integration, what those processes look like, right? Or we'll hear a slide deck from one of the regulators that says, hey, you know, data integration is fundamental in word you do it or it's almost like a catchall. All right. They'll find something that you wanted you to consider and they'll say, where did your data integration Consider this. I that's kind of like one lingo. But I think what we're talking about in your language is it's the systematic approach of having processes that are all interconnected so that you can ultimately integrate the information need to make really good choices. Jerry Rau Right. And I always and I've used this example many, many times, and I may even have put it in the book, but what we're really good at is if we dig up a pipeline and there's a sleeve on it, I made a repair and I go look in my data and say, Yep, we put a slave on there. And it was a Type B sleeve and it was made out of this material and here's the world of qualifications and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what we don't have anywhere is why, who made the decision to put that sleeve on and why was that decision made? And how do we learn from whether that was a good idea or a bad idea? And I'm not saying that putting a sleeve on is a bad idea, but I'm saying is why and who and who made that decision. You know what was supported that decision? What else did we learn about that decision? Instead of just saying, well, there was a leak. Rhett Dotson One of our close friends says the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from it. And we know from the NTSB public presentations that they've been on a mantra of was one of the drivers behind the failure file series was We're not learning from our failures as an industry. The NTSB comes out and produces these failures and has these recommendations and the industry fails to learn from our mistakes. And there was a big component that process, because when you said we don't do process well, what does he mean by that? And what I was hearing is we're not incorporating the lessons learned on the back end, and that's part of it. And that that is I feel like just unfortunate because like, well, it feels like it's permeating everything we do, right? Are we not learning from failures? Are we not learning from the NTSB? Are we not learning even from our own experiences? And, you know, maybe that's a big takeaway that we need to get better at doing that as an industry and learning from our failures and incorporating those failures into our few our future. Jerry Rau I'll give you an example when I left Panhandle and I would say Panhandle, sorry, and started a consulting business, we worked with the client and they had a failure and we looked at the failure and they said, we need to come in here now. Look at that up to a failure analysis. But how do we get better from this? Well, how can we learn from this? And we looked at and we said we knew for a fact that that company had a procedure that should have presented that prevented that failure and they weren't doing it. And I looked around the room and no offense, they were all young engineers and they said, Well, where's the procedure? I know you have this procedure. We didn't know we had it. So, this goes to the Geezer series as well. So, we need to make sure is that this historical knowledge, the what do they call the or the what's the word I'm looking for knowledge transfer, not knowledge transfer, but the historical knowledge that should be passed down. Industrial, I mean, institutional institution knowledge. Christopher de Leon Institutional knowledge needs to be transferred from one leadership to the next series of people. Jerry Rau That's right. And that's part of process management. Did you are you continuing to do the things that you know that you're supposed to do? And I go back to safety first, consistency second, compliance will follow. Christopher de Leon It's a culture, I think you and I see this all the time, right? I mean, how many times do you and I help operators solve the same problem? It's just a different operator. And we go back and we say, hey, have you not read this IPC paper? Or we actually presented this at PPIM at least twice over the last three years. And what we often find is it's there's maybe a challenge in integrating new information into integrity programs, right? Like a feedback loop or continuous improvement. Jerry Rau Lessons learned. I mean, we're not good at that. And again, that's part of that is part of process management, but it's obviously a big part of it. Rhett Dotson Yeah. And it's something that's, you know, just dawning on me, you know, many leading thoughts. So, you know, I think this is a good place to actually kind of put a bow on and tie up the episode. Jerry, I want to I want to say thanks for joining us. It's been a lot of fun talking with you. I hope maybe we see you again, because I think these are issues that are not going away anytime soon. And also, you know, again, as a plug to our audience, just want you guys to think if you do want to know where to get started. An organization, Christopher sits on several API committees. I am vice chair of the ONM subcommittee on B 318. Happy to get volunteers plugged in there. There are tons of places within PCI and your own organizations. I say start with asking for sure and hopefully you took away something from this episode as we as we look forward improving and again, Jerry, I just want to say thanks for joining us. And so, this is the end of Pipeline episode. What am I doing? My gosh, I'm struggling. Chris, can you wrap this up. Jerry Rau I can wrap it up. Rhett Dotson Jerry is going to wrap it up for me. First on pipeline things. Our wrap up will happen with Jerry. Jerry Rau Read the book. Read the book, read the book and truly, if you want, if you want to contact me, I'd be happy to hear from you. You may not get that from every one of your members, but I'd be happy to hear from you again. [email protected]. Rhett Dotson And there you have it. Christopher de Leon And we are pipeline things that we see again, we will see.