Plastometrex-The New Kids in the Ditch with Dr. Jimmy Campbell

Rhett Dotson All right. Welcome to the PPIM 2024 edition of Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson. My co-host, Mr. Christopher de Leon. And we have an esteemed guest. Would you like to quickly say your name? Jimmy Cambell Jimmy Campbell from Plastometrex in the U.K. Rhett Dotson So Plastometrex and thus you now have the Segway for this episode So, Jimmy, I'm from Louisiana. And people south Louisiana like you have to distinguish in Louisiana, south and north Louisiana. And we have our own funny accents due to our Cajun heritage and things we say mine is largely gone after spending 20 plus years in Texas. Christopher de Leon There's sense of it. Rhett Dotson Yeah, there’s bits of it. My roommates used make fun of me because I'd say like $50. And you know, when you go to when you go to if you ever find yourself, like in Lafayette or south of I-10 in Louisiana, they'll call you like, Hey, darlin and baby and all these things. Christopher de Leon Is that his nickname now? Is that what you're saying? Rhett Dotson Darlin? You want to call him darlin? Have you ever seen the movie Waterboy? Jimmy Campbell I have not. Christopher de Leon High quality H2O, baby. Rhett Dotson Yep. Jimmy Bouchet as that's a that's an Adam Sandler movie from back whenever I was a kid. Anyway, they blatantly and probably in a way that's no longer acceptable in today's cancel culture, the way a lot of people in South Louisiana speak. But the reason I'm bringing this up is that there was a debate prior to having you one, over the proper way to pronounce the company's name right. And so, Christopher, over here was Plastow metrics. Christopher de Leon It is Plastow Metrix metrics, right? Jimmy Cambell It's not. Rhett Dotson All right. So, Jimmy, can you give us a real quick lesson on the proper pronunciation? Spanish? Jimmy Cambell We thought it was straightforward. But we have to you know, we have to be fair. We have to be fair. We have employees who might still say Plasto Metrex. Yeah. And we have to say, no, it's Plastometrex. So, one of our one of our guys is called Tom. It's pretty straightforward. Yeah. Tom, it’s got your name in it. So plus, Tom attracts to never forget his name in it. Tom has his name in it. Yeah, exactly. Rhett Dotson Well, while we're on the subject of the mother language and some of the other things. Can you comment on aluminum? Jimmy Campbell Aluminum? There's some seriously good news on that front is that very few pipelines are made out of aluminum. And therefore, when we're here at PPIM we don't need to worry too much. Yeah, it still is still low carbon steel and in American English, right? Rhett Dotson It is. It is. But we never, ever cease to get amazed that we just don't understand where aluminum came from. Like there's not a it doesn't enunciate. The actual letters aren’t there in that one. But it's great fun. Thanks for entertaining our Segway on Plastometrex see I feel like I've got it know it does I will say Plastometrex rolls off the tongue. But tell us a little bit, you know, how did you how did Plastometrex come to be? How did you guys arrive? Why? Why would our audience be interested in hearing from you today? Jimmy Campbell For sure. Yeah. So, by way of background, so we founded late in 2018, so we've just celebrated our fifth birthday, but that was on the back of ten plus research, ten plus years of research work at the University of Cambridge in the UK. So, myself and a few of the other co-founders in the company were there doing research, looking at indentation-based methods to determine tensile properties. So that would be yield strength and tensile strength from a simple test where you push a hard sphere into the surface of a metal. So, we spent about ten years or so developing those kinds of techniques, and in 2018 felt like we had enough to go kind of commercial, if you like, with the endeavor. So, after that, we then went about designing our first product. So that was initially a benchtop machine designed to be used in the lab. And from there we then we're now here at PPIM because we have a portable machine which can be used out in the field to test pipelines. Rhett Dotson So, you started in 2018 with the development of the benchtop machine. So, when did you roll out? The one was the Benchtop machine commercial. Jimmy Campbell And so, it was 2020, which was not a great time. Rhett Dotson I was going to say, y’all just said I got a business idea. Let's launch it right in the middle of the world's longest running, biggest pandemic in the last century. Jimmy Campbell It wasn't ideal in terms of timing, but I think that made our traction and sales, you know, even more impressive at the time. So, we launched in 2020, we achieved global sales of the machine that year. So, we're now on every continent apart from Antarctica. Rhett Dotson Is that bitterness because when we prep for the podcast, you said that the same way apart from Antarctica. Is there is there a big market that you are currently missing in Antarctica, is there a big market their you guys are trying to corner? Jimmy Campbell I don't think so. But, you know, we keep an open mind on these things. So, if there are anyone out there who's watching this from Antarctica, who's looking for testing other metals, and we'd love to hear from them. Rhett Dotson So clearly, I'm guessing in Antarctica you don't have any temperature dependent issues. Jimmy Campbell And no, that's true. It's all it's all pretty cold. Rhett Dotson So, I’m curious because you said, you know, again, by the time you guys got ready to launch your desktop machine in 2018, you were already ten years into the research game, which means you would have been starting this around 2008. And that that was curious for me. What was the driver in 2008 for you guys for getting into this field of research? Can you share a little about that? Jimmy Campbell Sure. So, I mean, in the academic sphere, there's a lot of universities all over the world doing research into metallics and testing, and there's a large community around something called nano indentation. So very fine scale testing. So, this is not, I would say, a you know, we were not the first to try this. So, a couple of the kind of key things that we realized over that period were people worldwide who do not nanoindentation, superfine scale, often only in a single grain of the material. So, if you're trying to determine bulk tensile properties, you haven't really got a chance. So, it was it was during my Ph.D. that we scaled everything up. So, we went from using inventors of, say, 50 microns, which might be very sensitive to things like vibration, and you're still in, as I say, a single grain scaled everything up. So, we now use an intensive one-millimeter radius. So, it's pretty macroscale in many ways. And then there's a couple of things that you can look at from any indentation test. So, when you do an indent and I guess people would be most familiar with hardness tests, you'd create the indent and you look at the size, the diameter of what's left behind. The other thing you can do is look at live You can look at load versus displacement. So, we looked at both of those things and said, you know, is there any way of using the data either from a hardness test or a low displacement test to predict the properties? We're interested in tensile strength, yield strength. We realize that is really very difficult. So, you have to get everything very, very accurate to really get a good sense of what is a yield, stress and tensile strength. And we move to the process we use now, which is where we create the indent and then we look at the shape of what's left behind afterwards. So, we take the surface topography, so we have a spherical inner portion of our indent and the region around the rim is called the pilot region. Now that pilot region gives you loads of information about how the defamation has taken place and what the properties are. So, our process now looks like you create the indent, you then scan the shape of the profile and weigh the way that we then go from profile to predictive. The prediction of properties is we use finite element analysis so we can run our model and we can, if you like, take a guess at the properties and we can simulate what does the shape look like and then we can adjust the properties until the shape of our model matches that Ivo experiment. And at that point we can accurately predict the properties. Rhett Dotson You said, you know, a couple of key things come to mind there you’re indenting so this is closer but not to be confused with indentation testing which a lot of people are familiar with. This is actually a slightly different form of indentation because you're looking at the deformation around the rim, not just as you mentioned, the load displacement. Yeah. The other thing that I thought was really funny is I'm imagining you all. Everybody, everybody in our industry is driven around trying to go smaller, smaller sensors, tinier things, and you all actually went from nano back the other way. You know, it's kind of like we're going to need a bigger boat. Jimmy Campbell The next podcast I'm on, I'm going to say that's what happened in the meeting. Yeah, but yeah, no. So, there's kind of a fundamental limitation, right? If your grain size, you have to make sure that your indent is large relative to the microstructure testing. So, your grain size has to be fine relative to dense size. So, one millimeter radius covers us in the vast majority of cases to guarantee we're going to get what we call a bulk response to the material. Rhett Dotson All right. And so now you guys have moved beyond, right? So, we talked about this desktop thing, but obviously a desktop thing is not going to work in the field. You guys now have a field unit that you're rolling out as well. Right. Christopher de Leon So, if I can, I actually want to change the subject, so I want to go timeline here. So yeah, you're at Cambridge and you're doing research. How did you end up in pipelines, right? Because I mean, that's the thing. Like this isn't novel like as we all kind of have this story of like I never thought I was going to be in pipelines, you know, 30 years later. Here I am. You know, how did you end up in Pipeline? Jimmy Campbell Well, first of all, I never thought I'd be an indentation. You know, that was that was an interesting move. But, you know, that's where my career is now. So, I think the kind of the key step was we had the benchtop unit, we started selling the benchtop unit, and that's when we became aware of the mega rule. So, we were told by actually some of the guys we know at the Element Materials Technology Lab here, here in Houston, they mentioned, you know, there's this new rule that's coming in and, in the oil, and gas sector, you might want to take a look and see if that's applicable to you. So, we had to look at the legislation. We thought, okay, definitely something that we could satisfy some of the requirements of we just need a different machine. So, at that point we partnered with Rosen in the UK, so they supported a UK government grant that allowed us to get the funding to develop the new product and to go directly on the pipeline. So that's kind of how it happened. And then that process we started the project in November just over two years ago. Yeah, so we started with that, you know, like you said, taking the lab-based device, you know, what changes do we need to make to get that out into the field to make it reliable? And then here we are today, we've got the lab-based device. We've done a huge validation project. Now it's ready to go. Christopher de Leon So, like most of us, Pipeline sound to you? Jimmy Campbell Absolutely. Yeah. I tell you, some of these I'm going to use again in the future as something. Rhett Dotson So, I, I am sure it had to be at least a somewhat entertaining journey to go from benchtop to the field because pipelines bear no resemblance to the lab. I often I love laboratory settings, especially when we talk about, you know, like repair methodologies and things in our industry because we do these in a lab setting and anybody who's been in a ditch, you know, the first ditch you find, it's raining, it's muddy. The bottom of it's got six inches of water and you find yourself laying on the back of a pallet staring up at the bottom of a pipe, and it's raining on top of you. How challenging was it to go from the lab where you can control the environment into the uncontrolled wild west of the pipeline ditches? Jimmy Campbell I think it was certainly a challenge, but we had learned from experience with the benchtop that these things were never as simple as you think. So, we sat in early investor meetings when we had the science behind us, if you like, and I pretty confidently said to them, you know, we've we solved the difficult problem. Now we've completed the science, now we just need to build the hardware and that probably will be quite easy. And that turned out to not be the case for the lab-based machine. So, we learned by experience that it's more difficult process developing hardware than you might think. So, what we did was very early, we scoped what the requirements would be, so we spoke with a lot of operators, service providers and understood, okay, what are the differences, what do you know, what are the issues you maybe see with technologies you use out in the field right now? How can we potentially overcome those? So, we then looked at, you know, what does the benchtop machine look like and what changes do we think we'll have to make to make sure that it is good enough to go out in the field? So, one obvious one that we knew from day one was we use a stylus profilometer in the benchtop unit that just drags along the surface of the pipe that was not going to work, for example, underneath the pipe at 6:00 because the profilometer is gravity acts under gravity. It would not be in contact with the pipe. Christopher de Leon So, there we go. We recently had an opportunity to talk to Mr. Bruce Nestle Roth and he mentioned something he said, you know, science is about truth. Engineering is about compromise. Jimmy Campbell It's very true. We, you know, and we now see that, you know, almost every day in our lives is that you have to compromise on certain things. You know, we would love to have a machine that did everything automated and the operator didn't have to touch it, but you have to compromise at some point. So, the machine we've designed is simple and easy to use, but it still requires the intervention of our operator to do. Rhett Dotson All right. So, we're actually going to take a real quick break, Jimmy. We're going to come back. And when we come back, audience, we're going to talk about what this unit can actually do in terms of its specifications, qualifications, any limitations it might have. So, hang on and we'll be right back BJ Lowe Hello, everyone. It's BJ Lowe from Clarion, and we're very happy to be a sponsoring this season of Pipeline things to showcase the impressive technologies being exhibited. Here at PPIM. Ben Stroman I'm Ben Stroman and we've been impressed with the turnout at the 36th PPIM conference event in 2024 with 159 companies exhibiting over 3000 attendees and over 90 papers being presented. We've had a great year with a huge turnout in terms of high-quality technical paper submissions. Attendees this year will have the opportunity to hear from industry stakeholders and their advancements in several fields, including ILI analysis, geo hazards, material identifications and verification, emerging issues, repair, hydrogen integrity, management, entity and more. If you couldn't make it in person to the PPIM conference in February, you can always find helpful resources and tools offered by Clarion year-round. We have several courses taught by subject matter experts that can be found on our website. We're excited for PPIM this year and we hope to see everyone next year as well. But be sure to stay up to date with Clarion and its offerings by joining our mailing list on our Web site. Thanks. Rhett Dotson All right. Welcome back. As we are on our PPIM, 2024 arc with our guest, Mr. Jimmy Campbell of Plastometrex. So, Jimmy, we're going back, and I want to pick up right where we left off. So I want to play the role of an operator. I'm an operator. I hire you guys. Is it hire you guys? Jimmy Campbell No so we are technology provider technology. We operate the same business model as our benchtop. So we sell the units to service providers or whoever they be. Rhett Dotson So, I contact service provider X who's going to bring your unit out to my dig site. What should I expect? Jimmy Campbell So, the kit comes in two or three cases depending on the size of the pipe that needs to be tested. Once you're on site, you do need a generator. So, we do need power to run the units, just a standard generator. So, we have a power supply that is that is compatible with 110 or 220 or 240 volts. So, yeah, actually, you know, some of the some of the electrical systems, you can get these days are very flexible. So, the one we have can be plugged into either voltage supply and it will work just okay. So, you arrive at the ditch, you need a generator to run it. And then the first step is to prepare the surface of the pipe. So, we need to, first of all, remove any coating and then we recommend that you use effectively just a sander to take down to a 600 grit. So that process, you know, we only need a small area, maybe two inches by one inch maximum. And that process usually takes maybe 10 to 15 minutes to do too. Cristopher de Leon So that makes me think it's kind of easy for you to line up your kit. It's because if you're only surface prepping, maybe this big, you know that you're not in there trying to figure out how to line it up. Jimmy Campbell No, it's super straightforward. So, we have then what you do is you attach the cradle, so we call it the cradle, which effectively holds the indentor and the profilometer in place. So that's got a big strap that goes around the outside to hold it sort of roughly in place. And then we attach bars, which effectively you just tie it up to attach it firmly so you can then apply the load needed for the indent. And that part has we eventually have a just a small 3D printed aligner where you simply put it on the cradle and it'll tell you exactly where your five tests are going to go. Christopher de Leon So, I'm kind of curious now, right? So, you say cradle, I assume this is your baby. Is the baby's name Tom? or does this technology is the tech is the kit called? Jimmy Campbell I know that it's yeah, the baby, if you like. Is it so It's called the Plx Portable. So CLX portable. So maybe after today, we'll switch the whole name to Plx. Let's see. We'll get maybe we'll get some feedback from the viewers about the name. So yeah, so the cradle simply attaches to the pipe. It has to be held pretty rigidly because we're going to generate reasonably high loads. And then once the cradle is in position and tightened up, which again maybe takes about 15 minutes to set it up in position, you simply attach the indent module, you do your five tests and we have locator pins at the five different points. So you simply push the equipment along, you click, go on the software and then it'll carry out the next test, push it along the next one. So, you create five indents. You then take off the indent module, attach the profilometer and scan the shape of those five indents. Christopher de Leon And for clarity, all five within the two by one inch. Rhett Dotson How long does it take from start to finish? Jimmy Campbell So, we are doing test right now. You know, reliability testing and seeing how we can get this this time down as much as possible. But I think we're looking if you if you do a check in at the start, so on to a known sample and then you do your two quadrants and then you do your final check out, you're looking at about 2 hours total. Okay. To do those. Rhett Dotson What's the output Whenever they what kind of what's the what kind of report are they going to expect and what's the timing on that report? Jimmy Campbell So, the results are available live in the ditch. So, there is no waiting for report. The results are there and then on the screen and then you can select in the software what level of report you would like. Christopher de Leon That is really helpful. So, if you don't get results that you like, you just try again. Jimmy Campbell There are situations where, you know, we have seen your genuine variations in properties between the 2:00 in the and the 6:00, for example. Christopher de Leon I guess one of the things I'm curious about is, you know, this is an institute technology and a lot of us are behaviorally trained to talk about calibration processes. Anything you share about calibration that's required in the ditch? Jimmy Campbell Yeah. So, there are effectively two sensors that are key to getting good results. The first one is the load cell to make sure that the load that we apply is correct. The second one is the profilometer calibration, which effectively is based on the wavelength of the light. So, it's an interferometer type technology. So, you don't need as the user to do either of those in the ditch. We'd recommend in line with typical quality processes, you do a low tail calibration once per year. We will do that for you. And then the interferometer assay, it can be checked, but because it's based on the wavelength of light, it should be fine. So, what we'd recommend sorry is just to do a check on a known sample again, which we can supply just before you go into the ditch. You check, you get the right numbers in terms of yield tensile strength, and then you can carry on with you with your testing. Christopher de Leon So, before the break, we talked about kind of how it works, right? Yeah, we did a lot about indentation, shape, rim and now you said you saw the light. What does the light have to do with it? Jimmy Campbell So, the light is just the way of getting the shape. So, I thought, okay, the profilometer is because it uses a light-based technology to measure the shape. Rhett Dotson All right. Well, Jimmy, I would like to thank you and Plastometrex for joining us today on pipeline thing. I look forward to seeing how you guys roll out this technology and hear more about it. It's definitely needed there in our industry. So, our audience, we hope you enjoyed this episode on the PPIM2024 Arc continue listening. We're going to have lots more coming your way from PPIM in 2024. Thanks, and see you in two weeks.