Toughness Testing Show & Tell with Simon Bellemare

Rhett Dotson Welcome to the 2024 PPIM edition of Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson, by esteemed co-host Christopher de Leon and our guest on this edition of the PPIM series Mr. Simon. I just realized I don't actually know how to pronounce your last name. Christopher de Leon Bellemare. Rhett Dotson I was about to say Belamar and then I was like, I don't think it's actually a three-syllable name there. Simon Bellemare As long as you got Simon, I don’t mind the rest. Rhett Dotson So, you know, on that note you two guys have known each other for a while longer than I have known you. So, but in the short time that I have known you, you have a fantastic ability. You never know what you're going to do. You're unpredictable, right? Christopher de Leon The way I would say it is, he's characteristically forward. Rhett Dotson Characteristically forward, but also unpredictable, like that one day that small drivable BMW car showed up and we didn't know who sent it. And it took us like a month to figure out who sent the little child's BMW car. That was a joke off of LinkedIn or we got thigs thing of maple syrup. We were like who sent us a whole bunch of maple syrup? Simon Bellemare All right. So, I didn’t know I was going to, you know, be put out the spot here with respect to all the things I've done that were not so great. Rhett Dotson They're brilliant. Simon Bellemare It could go either way. Well, you know, I always want to keep life interesting. You know, And that's part of it. And yeah, you know, honestly, including this podcast today, a lot of people commented over the years. I mean, you are what people tell you, you are right? They say, Simon I can listen to you many times. And every time you say something different, you know, that's, I think a no contradiction. But, you know, I can't do the same thing twice. That would be something that explains some of the some of that impromptu stuff. Christopher de Leon Simon, that's an artist. That's just the one piece. Rhett Dotson All I have to say, call out to the audience you got to listen to the whole podcast because you have no idea when Simon will drop the gold that will be forever on tape on this podcast. But it's guaranteed to happen at some point. Christopher de Leon It's our job to pull it out. We're just going to keep soft balling stuff and see what he cracks. Rhett Dotson But no, seriously, thank you for joining us, I think. I think it's fair for me to say that in introducing MMT, you guys are really well known When people think about material testing, when people think about in the ditch, material verification. I would probably without hesitation say that MMT is the first name that comes to mind. In the forefront, right. You guys have been, I think, fighting, waging this war in the industry for longer than anyone else. So, it's going to be you know, we just want to thank you for coming on and be willing to talk about that. But for those of our listeners who maybe aren't as familiar with MMT, can you give us who is Simon Bellemare? And if you don't mind, a Reader's Digest version of MMT and how you got here today? Simon Bellemare Yeah, well, so to start about me, if you if that's what you want. I was born in Quebec, Canada, and decided to be an engineer and from down I just wore a lot of different hats and they’re still in the closet. I took the scientist hat to get my PHD at MIT, and that's where I started doing this frictional sliding stuff on to kind of the core of a technology today. When I graduated, I came back to say, hey, I wanted to be a engineer. I didn't want to be a scientist. So, I did that for about ten years. And this idea came up to do, you know, technology companies. I became a real interpreter, taking managing risk. I'm more interested in coaching people being interpreters than doing it again myself. Christopher de Leon Yeah, that is the question. Would you do it again? I don't know. Simon Bellemare Well, you know, there would have to be another front runner and that's possible, you know, with the experience, and being able to coach somebody to really do it. But, you know, MMT today, we've been in business since 2018. So, the first two or three years we were just is it trying to get a team Rhett Dotson Was it 2018? Simon Bellemare The company was founded in 2015. We took three years to make machines, get them to third party blind tested and by the end of 18 we had 150 digs under our belt. And, you know, I'd like to say that at that point, the real work started. You know, you had the tool, you know, you could do this, the roles came out, the mega rule, and we rushed to be able to sell equipment and be scalable by the time it came in effect in 2021. So, at that point, you're six years into it. We kept improving stuff, adding on things, the software, the things connecting automatically. And I've had less and less to do with it, honestly and I appreciate that. Did go back to the lab, not as a scientist, but as kind of the innovator challenging a few things. You know, it's been fun the past couple of years. Been fun. I say that I officially acted as a CEO starting last year. Rhett Dotson All right. So, what were you before this? Simon Bellemare Well, wearing all those hats I was jack of all trades, master of none. Rhett Dotson So, I really appreciate that you said 2015, because I definitely remember I felt like I was hearing about you guys before 2018, but 2015 is that when you suddenly got the idea to start MMT and be like, hey, let's go do materials there had to be a period before 2015? Simon Bellemare Yeah, yeah. And I do remember some of those moments. Rhett Dotson Is that what it is? You trying to block them out? Christopher de Leon Let's just say he was exploring and we might not disclose what those activities were. Simon Bellemare Well, the very first thought of making a portable instrument I was working under and historical bridge in Boston on a barge with a poker, that's what we were using. They wanted to know if they had to tear the whole thing down and make a new one. It was a very nice arch and I mean; we spent all effort we could because it was important we couldn't get data really that was useful. There’s been other instances, you know, looking at you show up to a job site, they running this big reactor that was built long ago and they don't know what it's made out of. And you're there as a consultant and you say, well, you know, what do you want me to do? You know, I am here to evaluate the integrity, but you don't give me the data. So, it took a while because I take the ability to come up with an idea. So, I, I had to identify something I thought I could do. I never thought about how until about three years later. So that was 2013. And what was interesting was I kind of quit my day job, started my own consulting company, started lecturing at MIT. So, all of a sudden, you know, you're more able to think. And, you know, if there's some takeaway I've learned is, you know, I think everybody does it at least once in their life, take a little bit of a step back and say, you know, what can I do? What do I want to do? So, this idea came up of putting the lab instrument on a tripod. So, it can fall over the pipe. And that's really was sort of the real starting inspiration for the company. Without that, we couldn't make a tool, a good tool, portable You can kind of make it. But you know to be able to test different diameters always have everything perpendicular to the surface, which is super important. And then from there it was, you know, getting enough momentum, getting people to start doing things for free right? Christopher de Leon So, you're getting towards like the, the now. The, getting it off the ground. But one of the questions I always like to ask is and you'll hear this on every podcast is it's you know, why pipelines like at what point did you say I'm going to target pipelines? Rhett Dotson And not Boston Bridges. Christopher de Leon Like how'd you get here. Simon Bellemare Yeah, well, you know, we had to find an application were taking a piece and bringing it to the lab was not possible. So, we were looking for, you know, high pressure stuff to begin with. And, you know, simply put, when we started doing market research, the, you know, the mega rule came out. So, we started talking to the pipeline company. We spoke to Enbridge in 2014. So even before starting about some of their needs and yeah, it was a validated market for us. Considered small by our sponsors. Yeah, but with a low barrier of entry because we didn't need the tool to be standardize. So between the need being there being a timing aspect and you know proof is in the pudding sort of thing that just made it very, very clear. Christopher de Leon And regulation helps. Simon Bellemare Yeah. Rhett Dotson Yeah. Interesting. So, let's fast forward to today where you guys are because we're going to divide up this podcast and into this interview with you really into two segments, which is where is MMT now? You know, what should people expect if they if they're going to reach out to you guys to do an inspection? What's the technology that's in the ditch today? And then we are going to move forward with where you guys are going next on the second part. But so, tell us a little bit now, where is HSD testing today? Simon Bellemare It's, you know, it's a rugged process all together. So, it took years to build, to operate and to be able to deliver equipment, training, certification, remote support for if anything goes bad, including people, you know, not always being in the ideal condition. They wanted to test the fitting. They wanted a two-inch diameter. So, they always call in and we get those things answered. And then the, you know, the data service has been ironed out in terms of being able to do everything faster. But kind of that high level, we're ready for the next phase of growth because our product today is more or less as good as it gets in terms of accuracy. There is improvement, in terms of ease of use, you know, removing steps, things that get measuring in chemistry, doing the imaging that's going to become optional, just kind of like if you want the best accuracy to do this, but if you want to save some time, you can use just the tool itself. Rhett Dotson So, explain that a little bit. Simon Bellemare It's just making it nice to have that infrastructure in place. Rhett Dotson So, if somebody ran into you a year or two ago, they're used to bringing the HSD tester on site, prepping the pipe, running it, they give the data to you and then they get an answer back like within minutes. Simon Bellemare So, it used to be to two weeks. Rhett Dotson Two weeks. What does that process look like today with the current HSD tester? Because you just offered a few different variations, there might be one that people not be familiar with. Simon Bellemare Yeah. Okay. So today we have the instant report. It does require the, the tablet to be connected to WIFI or something like that, which is generally the case and high consequence area where those things are done. So, at that point, by the time it's connected in 30 minutes you have that instant report. Rhett Dotson So, they run the HSD tests are on the pipe, they get the information back and then they get that answer within 30 minutes. Simon Bellemare Yeah, yeah. Now that data gets verified currently kind of manually if there is some discrepancy when you do the further analysis. Now we do a revised report. That's the step we're going to eliminate in a few months. And I don't know exactly when, but I know, I know it's been exactly the find out it's a matter of a release process. Christopher de Leon So, you know maybe let's go back two ticks, if you don't mind. So, let's say we have some newer listeners that maybe have heard of MMT know that you offer a material verification service, but they don't really understand HSD. Can you give us an elevator explanation on what HSD is? Simon Bellemare Yeah, yeah. So, HSD is unique in terms of instead of indentation, when you have a ball that gets on the surface, we slide. And the biggest difference there is you create essentially a weight profiles the same way you got a boat on a lake. It starts to get to that speed and you form a certain ridge in the back. So, at the core, all the tool does it applies a constant load, just like the weight of the boat. And then there is a tool to measure the width of the weight that is behind. And we have four balls, like four boats running side by side with different shape and that's it. So, the fundamental is very simple. Rhett Dotson What is HSD? Simon Bellemare Hardness, strength and ductility. Yeah, but you know, a lot of people call it the MMT tool, right? Rhett Dotson This is true. Christopher de Leon But it’s the origin story. Rhett Dotson You need to you need to embellish the origin story. Can you not be sitting on a boat and you were sitting there one day, you saw a boat come across the lake and you just had this thing where you realize still materials behave the same way and you went into your garage and in your garage you were. Simon Bellemare I love it. I love it. Yes, I do get inspired a lot when I go fishing. Like it's very important. That's why my wife lets me do it. Rhett Dotson I am working. I study the profiles of the boats as they go by to improve the technology. Christopher de Leon So, what does what does the HSD give you? Simon Bellemare So, you know the fundamental with respect to the load and the width that's just get put into models we built using limit analysis. So, we have essentially those equation. You get the four with numbers and then it turns into a theoretical yield straight because that's just really built out of the physical measurement and the simulation. And you know, from there is machine learning to take that theory number and make it something that's very, very close. Christopher de Leon So, a customer is less interested in a profile. For example, they're more interested in the final calculation, which is a yield trait. Simon Bellemare Yeah, yeah. They want the yield strait. They want to make sure that meets all the requirements of the mega rule. So there has to be some very well-established procedures and training, certification and all those things. Make sure that whoever runs the test will give you a reliable result with the same level of accuracy, essentially. So that's been that's been really multi years of work and getting everything down to the point where if, you could get trained and certify Christopher. Christopher de Leon You know, yeah, how many times can you fail the test? Rhett Dotson You know what, on that note, we're actually going to take a real quick break and we're going to be back. When we come back, we're going to talk with Simon about where MMT is going in the future and maybe talk a little bit about some new things that you guys are working on. Hang out. We'll be right back. BJ Lowe Hello, everyone. It's BJ Lowe from Clarion, and we're very happy to be a sponsoring this season of Pipeline things to showcase the impressive technologies being exhibited. Here at PPIM. Ben Stroman I'm Ben Stroman and we've been impressed with the turnout at the 36th PPIM conference event in 2024 with 159 companies exhibiting over 3000 attendees and over 90 papers being presented. We've had a great year with a huge turnout in terms of high-quality technical paper submissions. Attendees this year will have the opportunity to hear from industry stakeholders and their advancements in several fields, including ILI analysis, geo hazards, material identifications and verification, emerging issues, repair, hydrogen integrity, management, entity and more. If you couldn't make it in person to the PPIM conference in February, you can always find helpful resources and tools offered by Clarion year-round. We have several courses taught by subject matter experts that can be found on our website. We're excited for PPIM this year and we hope to see everyone next year as well. But be sure to stay up to date with Clarion and its offerings by joining our mailing list on our Web site. Thanks. Rhett Dotson All right. Welcome back. So, we are here with Simon Belmore from MMT. We're going to continue our conversation. But as we get in back from the break Simon, I want to touch base because I don't know that we did a good job in the first part of really differentiating the different levels of service and maybe even to some extent, the different products that are out there. So, we mentioned there's actually two separate reports that people can currently get from you now with different timescales and different accuracies. In addition to that, you guys are going to be pushing the envelope in the near future. Simon Bellemare So, I told you, I don't want to make things boring. But it does drive so our customers nuts. Rhett Dotson Start naming them by year MMT 2024 and 2025. Then you can ask which version of MMT are you using? Oh, I got 2026 version. Simon Bellemare Yeah. Well so, so there's one thing that's super important to understand is the data is retroactive. So, when we make that improvement, you can go back. You don't have to worry. But I think what's easiest to do is to talk about what's going to happen April 1st. So sometime in April there will be two things you can do when you go in ditch with the tool. The first option is you just run the tool. And by running all the tool, just the tool, everything is automated and you'll get your final number now your second option, and that's coming with the same accuracy that we have right now, so there is no change. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so the biggest thing is you can continue to use the full process, which include grain size and chemistry and those chemistry results take a week to come back. So, we can't so we can't expedite that more. It has to be shipped all that. Christopher de Leon So just briefly so they'll use HSD they'll take some sampling from the pipe, send it to a lab, get chemistry? Simon Bellemare Yep, yep. And onsite they etch the surface and get grain size. So, this is what we used to do, except now we put a plus on it because the accuracy's plus or -2.6. And we're getting pretty close to what would be the lab-to-lab variation. We did some testing you know different locations on the pipe, different people running the lab test that in terms of the test lab. So, we're pretty much getting close here to the sort of the physical limit. Rhett Dotson And this kind of gives your clients the ability, I assume, to decide when they want to engage that surface. Because they're going to get the results real time. If three plus or minus works for them, there's no need to take the shavings and do the other stuff. But if they want to pull the trigger and need that, then they can go, they get that extra bit. Simon Bellemare Yeah. So that's, that's about the story yield strength now with the same HSD plus process as long as the seam is inspected to make sure there's no anomaly including on the inside of the pipe, you want to slide over it. Rhett Dotson So, the same tool they're bringing in the ditch but I can get a report that day or within a week. Now we're talking about measuring on the seam. Simon Bellemare Yeah. And that's something that a lot of customers right now are not fully aware. So, because we're here and we're trying to talk about these things, what happens when you scan over the seam is you get this variation in strength through the heat affected zone. Rhett Dotson Because you're scratching or you're doing your mark transverse? Simon Bellemare Yeah, exactly. That's right. And we do it long enough to go all the way from, you know from base pipe. There's a macro edge, it does require chemistry and then we get that ductile to brittle transition. So, the 85% share that's been blind tested and the more I talk to people, they say, well, if I can verify a ductile behavior and I have corrosion on this seam, that helps me. If I have corrosion and dents on the seam, I'm able to know that you have a ductile behavior you are in much better shape. So, that's really sort of the added value for the same equipment on site and everything. Rhett Dotson So, I'm curious now, so is this is the welds that you can the welds that you can etch, is it limited only to ERW? Simon Bellemare No, you have to allow for moving of the cap. That's right. That's right. And then there's going to be a lot of conversation about that. We're starting a joint industry program and the customers want us to include those. So, we want to talk about the what's coming up? Rhett Dotson You brought show and tell pieces. This is not normal for guests to come this prepared. So, by all means, what is this? And by the way, for our audience who's cannot see if you're watching on the YouTube channel Trip S has photographed these pieces before and will overlay them on the YouTube channel so that you can see what Symon is talking about. For those of you who are listening on your car, don't drive off the road as you try to visualize what he's doing, but someone's going to visualize what the pieces that he's brought here for us. Simon Bellemare So, since 2014, we've been asked to measure through fracture toughness. And of course we can't do a direct C.T test that would require to take the pipeline. So, we do a surface test. And I'm going to describe it because were starting field work right now with this this year. And that can lead to extra confusion because, you know, a lot of people say I want to use MMT. Okay, well, again, what do you want? Rhett Dotson He’s getting up from his seat. I'm actually scared. I feel like we are losing control. I have no idea what is going on. Simon Bellemare The first step is to make these islands. So, there's a bit here that makes them and insured, you know, that doesn't go too far or anything like that. Then we have a blade and the blade has a little gap in it. And this is an idea we had before, but the gap is very, very narrow. Rhett Dotson So that is the blade. Simon Bellemare Yeah. Rhett Dotson And so, this is what you do with the blade? Simon Bellemare Yeah. You can, you can fit a business card through it. That's it. So, what happens during the test is the machine comes with that blade and pushes on the island to essentially peel it off. And because of the gap in the metal, you create that microfracture. So, we called a method planning induced microfracture. Yeah, but. So that microfracture, what happens is we look how much it deforms before it actually snaps. And that's. And that's how we get toughness. We, we use that amount of stretch in the opening of the tool and we use other stuff. You know, we use yield strength, we use work hardening, we use some aspect of chemistry and we are within 15% of the actual key values that you'll get from the lab. Rhett Dotson So, I want to make sure I understand it for or because you were talking to the camera and got real up close, we lost sight of you and I didn't know if we were going to. I didn't know if he's going to wonder of set for a second there. I was like, I don't know what's going on here. I wasn't prepared. So, if this is my pipe surface, you actually go in and mill these little rounds they look like crop circles from aliens, right? Overlapping crops circles. The alien technology. The one that does crop circles. Yes. Crop circles of islands. So, after you mill the. And how deep are these? Simon Bellemare 25 mils weight. That's a depth. That's not a percentage of wall thickness. It's an it's a depth. We're going to improve over time. But right now, essentially, we need it's a metal loss. Right. And you want a certain distance between the test and two quadrants. Rhett Dotson So, in order to do this, you got to be able to do 25 mil deep crop circle. Christopher de Leon Quarter sized crop circles with islands in them. Rhett Dotson And do you do this many of them? Simon Bellemare No, somebody got excited here. Rhett Dotson Somebody got excited. Okay. So, after you do a crop circle or a few crop circles, you come back with the blade. Simon Bellemare Yeah. The tool actually has two of them and it's really like a clipper. So, it pulls the island from each side. So, you get to test for an island. So, you only need three islands and then you, you essentially run six test per quadrant. Rhett Dotson And this is going to give you I'm sorry, now what am I going to get after I run this test? Simon Bellemare You get how much the steel was able to stretch before it actually fractures. Rhett Dotson Which you're then relating to fracture toughness. So, I’m getting onto maybe it's a hot button topic. I'm sorry. I totally took over. Christopher de Leon It's all right. Rhett Dotson Are you giving me Sharpies? Are you giving me toughness? Simon Bellemare Well, it's. It's a little bit like Sharpie where it's not exactly a key test. Right? So, we're not in those conditions. So, we are as good as Sharpie right now. We've got to verify that. And we want to keep getting better, of course. Rhett Dotson Okay, fantastic. And so, this is what's on the development platform. Simon Bellemare Yeah. Rhett Dotson Are you allowed to comment on the development schedule or is that an April Fool's joke? Simon Bellemare Yeah. So, it's actually going to a customer's site next week. Rhett Dotson Next week? Simon Bellemare Yeah, it's blind testing and all that. So. But you know what? What's good is we need to roll in and gradually we don't have all the procedures, we don't have all the data reporting and all that. So, we're going to do like we've learned to do in the past is, yeah, rolling out nice and slow, get it blind tested eventually make, you know, a tool that anybody can use right now it's run by the engineers. Anyway, I love what you guys are doing. Christopher de Leon Well, thank you. I appreciate it. It's only a show for you guys. Come on. And we really appreciate it. Rhett Dotson Absolutely. So, to all of our guests out there. I want to say thanks to MMT. I want to thank Simon Bellemare for joining us again. If you get a chance to meet him, you'll never know what type of gold he's going to drop on you. So, stick around. Two more weeks. We've got our next episode of PPIM Pipeline Things. Thank you very much.